Author Topic: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?  (Read 6756 times)

Offline MarkNY

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Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« on: November 25, 2008, 09:32:05 PM »
hi, id like to use a belly gas tank in a center console. i plan to align the connections(filler hose/vent line) coming out of the tank with the center console. having these connections coming up into the center console. but i cant figure out how to get these lines to the side hull of the boat and up to the shelves without going up over the deck. any suggestions? only thought i had was to raise the deck with spacers on the stringers and then drilling through the spacers to run fuel lines underneath the deck. dont want to cut into the structural stringers and dont want to raise the deck unless i absolutely have to. any ideas? hope im making sense with my words. thanks alot, mark
Union Springs,NY

Offline walknbob

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2008, 10:20:17 PM »
but i cant figure out how to get these lines to the side hull of the boat and up to the shelves without going up over the deck. any suggestions? only thought i had was to raise the deck with spacers on the stringers and then drilling through the spacers to run fuel lines underneath the deck. dont want to cut into the structural stringers and dont want to raise the deck unless i absolutely have to. any ideas?

Hi Mark

I tried to come up with a way to do what you are talking about. My solution was to run my lines back to the splash well. Here are some pages that might give you some ideas.

http://www.fishyfish.com/walknbob/ourboat/day_112.htm

http://www.fishyfish.com/walknbob/ourboat/day_115.htm

http://www.fishyfish.com/walknbob/ourboat/day_129.htm

http://www.fishyfish.com/walknbob/ourboat/day_141.htm
WalknBob aka Bob Southwick - Anchor Point Alaska
The risk of collision became an issue the day the second boat was built.

Offline jim shula

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 08:51:08 AM »
Mark,

I drilled 1 3/4" holes thru both port and stbd stringers to run fuel lines, steering cable, control cables and wiring from my center console to the motor etc.  After passing thru the stringer, they travel up the sta 6 framing in an enclosed chase up to a sub-shelf along the underside of the of the shear deck.  The only place these cables and fuel line show is at the transom where they exit the shelf and run to the motor. 

As Bob says, you can run these things thru a chase under the deck between the stringers back to the transom, but in my boat with a belly tank between the stringers, I had no room in there for a chase.

Cutting a hole in a stringer doesn't weaken it as long as you leave 2" of wood above and below the hole.  Any good plumber will tell you that.  For peace of mind, I backed up the stringers' holes on both sides with 16" x 3/4" ply glued and glassed to the stringer.

The problem I foresaw with running a pipe chase under the deck to the transom where it elbows up to the motor is keeping water out of the chase.  It seems like once it gets in, it's there until it dries out unless it can drain into a sump area at the transom.   My boat has a sealed deck and no sump.  This way I don't need a bilge pump which was a prime consideration when planning the layout.

Offline jim shula

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 09:09:27 AM »
Mark,

I just re-read your post and saw your question about the filler tube.  I didn't bother routing that thru the stringer because it would have required too large of a hole.  I mounted it in a recess in the seat in front of the cc instead.  see pic  It's the oval area on the port side of the cc seat.


Offline walknbob

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2008, 09:16:18 AM »
The problem I foresaw with running a pipe chase under the deck to the transom where it elbows up to the motor is keeping water out of the chase.  It seems like once it gets in, it's there until it dries out unless it can drain into a sump area at the transom.   My boat has a sealed deck and no sump.  This way I don't need a bilge pump which was a prime consideration when planning the layout.

I can see your point if you are planning on a sealed deck. Since I had planned for a bilge then water wasn't an issue. But if you have a fuel tank below a sealed deck it seems it would be hard to know if you had a fuel leak as it would be in a confined space with nowhere to drain or fumes to escape.
WalknBob aka Bob Southwick - Anchor Point Alaska
The risk of collision became an issue the day the second boat was built.

Offline jim shula

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2008, 11:03:48 AM »
I have two 6" access hatches, one over each stringer near the transom for inspection purposes, and a garboard drain plug (5/8" pipe thread, not one of those expandable rubber deals with the flip handle) accessible from the exterior of the hull at the very bottom of the transom.  This plug drains each and every drop of water that gets below the sealed deck.  The only time water ever came out was when the plug itself leaked a little over a week's time on a mooring.  Every trailer boat should have a garboard drain plug, IMO.

I'm in the habit of removing the 6" hatches between trips so the area under the deck can breathe.  There is also a standpipe that rises up under the cc which all the cables etc go down into.  This 4" pipe is open to the atmosphere as well so there is plenty of ventilation under my sealed decks.

Offline kchace

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2008, 11:19:04 AM »
Mark,

I just re-read your post and saw your question about the filler tube.  I didn't bother routing that thru the stringer because it would have required too large of a hole.  I mounted it in a recess in the seat in front of the cc instead.  see pic  It's the oval area on the port side of the cc seat.



  Its a great idea and since you built the boat for yourself you may not have to comply with CG regs, but with the fill inside the boat, any spilled gas goes right into the boat which can be a major safety concern. According to the CG Handbook for Boatbuilders the fill should be positioned so fuel can't normally 'spill' into the boat:

http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatbuilder/fuel/183-564-a.htm

  Ken

Ken Chace
The Lucky C
25' Jumbo

Offline jim shula

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2008, 01:59:19 PM »
Ken,

I studied these regs when building, and then went to the boat shows and saw several boats with gas fill fittings inside the boat (ie, not on the gunwhales).  Boston Whaler and Maritime Skiff to name two.  Then I asked the CG and CG Auxiliary.  After talking to several people, someone pointed out that those particular regs don't apply to outboard powered boats.

General

FEDERAL LAW

183.501 - Applicability

(a) This subpart applies to all boats that have gasoline engines, except outboard engines, for electrical generation, mechanical power, or propulsion.
 

FIGURE 1 - Applicability


Offline MarkNY

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2008, 09:05:46 PM »
excellent information here guys. appreciate it. im planning a full deck with a sump at the transom. not sure what type of ventilation or draining i should have under a deck with a sump but im learning. shoes, i love the idea of a fill located at the console. thats something i hadnt thought of. thanks again everbody. mark
Union Springs,NY

Offline kchace

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2008, 10:08:41 AM »
Ken,

I studied these regs when building, and then went to the boat shows and saw several boats with gas fill fittings inside the boat (ie, not on the gunwhales).  Boston Whaler and Maritime Skiff to name two.  Then I asked the CG and CG Auxiliary.  After talking to several people, someone pointed out that those particular regs don't apply to outboard powered boats.

General

FEDERAL LAW

183.501 - Applicability

(a) This subpart applies to all boats that have gasoline engines, except outboard engines, for electrical generation, mechanical power, or propulsion.
 

FIGURE 1 - Applicability



  That's a very good point that I thought I was aware of, but apparently forgot. There's lot of stuff one can do with an outboard powered boat that is not allowed with other types of propulsion. The one I like the best is the Racor filter with the clear bowl and drain that you can mount *inside* the boat.

  Like I said, I really do LIKE the fill on Shoes' boat. A major consideration for me was putting the fill someplace where I could add fuel from a portable can while on the water, A spot in front of the console would make it super easy.

  Ken
Ken Chace
The Lucky C
25' Jumbo

Offline kchace

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2008, 10:13:26 AM »
excellent information here guys. appreciate it. im planning a full deck with a sump at the transom. not sure what type of ventilation or draining i should have under a deck with a sump but im learning. shoes, i love the idea of a fill located at the console. thats something i hadnt thought of. thanks again everbody. mark

  Mark, my opinion is that you seal the underdeck spaces to the best of your ability and simply allow a way to open a drain into the rear sump. I used a standard 1" brass tube from each of my three underdeck spaces to the sump. These are kept tightly sealed except when on the trailer in my yard. Though after a year of not a drop of water in any, I rarely worry about opening them.

  My deck arrangement (only 3/4" above the stringers) would not have yielded good operating deck scuppers and since I rarely get *any* water on deck, I'm very happy with my rear sump and dual bilgepump setup.

  Ken
Ken Chace
The Lucky C
25' Jumbo

Offline KenB

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2008, 11:05:45 AM »
I used LVL for my stringers, so I was not concerned that drilling a few holes in them would result in cracking. I routed mine so they were on the same side as the fuel fill on my truck. Also, I put my vent about 1/2" above the spray rail, as this seemed to be the least likely place to get water jammed up it. 

Had I known that it was actually legal to put the fill in the console, I would have done that, just to save the 6$/foot tubing costs.  Don't buy that stuff at West Marine, as it costs 12$ or $14 a foot there.

Does anyone know if you need to have your fuel fill line and vent lines covered? Right now they are just running up the side of the boat, out in the open, but I will probably cover them to make sure they don't get accidentally gashed.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 11:07:27 AM by KenB »
best,
KenB

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Offline jim shula

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2008, 03:44:59 PM »
My fuel vent is tucked right up under the rub rail, but my mistake was to not loop the vent hose up higher than the fitting.  Since there is a low spot in the vent line where it goes thru the stringer, I could conceivably get a blockage of water in the line.  I wonder what would happen if I did?  Would the fuel pump pull the water into the tank, or would the motor die because the fuel tank couldn't get make-up air?

The first year I winterized the boat, I took the vent fitting off the top of the tank and blew compressed air thru it.  A few drops of water came out, but not much so i make it an annual chore now.  I suppose it would really have to a rough day to get any spray up into the vent fitting nostrils.

Regarding the metal filler fitting with the gas cap, I never could get a definitive answer as to if this should be grounded or not.  I make it a point to never put a gas pump into the filler at the station or dock.  Instead, I fill 5 gallon cans and add gas to the tank from them. 

Up until recently, I could still find gas around here at select stations that had no ethanol.  Now it seems they've all gone to the ethanol mix, so I drain my tank before putting the boat up for the winter.

Offline kchace

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2008, 07:03:01 AM »
My fuel vent is tucked right up under the rub rail, but my mistake was to not loop the vent hose up higher than the fitting.  Since there is a low spot in the vent line where it goes thru the stringer, I could conceivably get a blockage of water in the line.  I wonder what would happen if I did?  Would the fuel pump pull the water into the tank, or would the motor die because the fuel tank couldn't get make-up air?

The first year I winterized the boat, I took the vent fitting off the top of the tank and blew compressed air thru it.  A few drops of water came out, but not much so i make it an annual chore now.  I suppose it would really have to a rough day to get any spray up into the vent fitting nostrils.

Regarding the metal filler fitting with the gas cap, I never could get a definitive answer as to if this should be grounded or not.  I make it a point to never put a gas pump into the filler at the station or dock.  Instead, I fill 5 gallon cans and add gas to the tank from them. 

Up until recently, I could still find gas around here at select stations that had no ethanol.  Now it seems they've all gone to the ethanol mix, so I drain my tank before putting the boat up for the winter.

  I believe if there was water in a low spot in the line the fuel pump would pull air bubbles through it as required, but depending on the slope of the hose, proximity to the tank, etc., it could also pull the water into the tank. You may want to consider moving your vent someday. Vent issues are definitely a common source of water getting into the tank.

  *ALL* metal fittings related to fuel need to be grounded. That includes the fill, the sender and anything else that comes into contact with the fuel:

http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatbuilder/fuel/183-572.htm


  Ken



« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 07:15:17 AM by kchace »
Ken Chace
The Lucky C
25' Jumbo

Offline jim shula

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Re: Gas tank/filler hose/vent config. for center console?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2008, 08:05:44 AM »
Ken,

How should I ground the fuel fill that has no grounding screw?  Can I stick the bared end a ground wire between the nipple and the fuel filler hose, then tighten the clamps?  What gauge wire should I use?  Since the sender has two terminals ( + and -), does that mean it's grounded?

I don't think I could get water all the way to the tank via the vent hose.  It travels down the side of the hull, goes thru the stringer, then rises up about 18" to exit the standpipe under the console before it attaches to the vent fitting.  At any rate, I also have a Racor that's never shown any water in the bowl, and then there's a fuel filter on the side of the motor under the cowl that has a red pellet that will rise if there is any water in the bowl.

Thanks,

Jim



 

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